Linked Discourses 12.68
- The Great Chapter
At Kosambī
At one time the venerables Musīla, Saviṭṭha, Nārada, and Ānanda were staying near Kosambī in Ghosita’s monastery.
Then Venerable Saviṭṭha said to Venerable Musīla:
“Reverend Musīla, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, do you personally know that
rebirth is a requirement for old age and death?”
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, I know and see that
rebirth is a requirement for old age and death.”
“Reverend Musīla, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberateation, do you personally know that
continued existence is a requirement for rebirth …
grasping is a requirement for continued existence …
craving is a requirement for grasping …
feeling is a requirement for craving …
contact is a requirement for feeling …
the six sense fields are requirements for contact …
name and form are requirements for the six sense fields …
consciousness is a requirement for name and form …
choices are a requirement for consciousness …
ignorance is a requirement for choices?”
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, I know and see that
ignorance is a requirement for choices.”
“Reverend Musīla, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, do you personally know that
when rebirth ceases, old age and death cease?”
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, I know and see that
when rebirth ceases, old age and death cease.”
“Reverend Musīla, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, do you personally know that
when continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases …
when grasping ceases, continued existence ceases …
when craving ceases, grasping ceases …
when feeling ceases, craving ceases …
when contact ceases, feeling ceases …
when the six sense fields cease, contact ceases …
when name and form cease, the six sense fields cease …
when consciousness ceases name and form cease …
when choices cease consciousness ceases …
when ignorance ceases, choices cease?”
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, I know and see that
when ignorance ceases, choices cease.”
“Reverend Musīla, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, do you personally know that
the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment?”
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, I know and see that
the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.”
“Then Venerable Musīla is a perfected one, with defilements ended.”
When he said this, Musīla kept silent.
Then Venerable Nārada said to Venerable Saviṭṭha,
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, please let me answer these questions.
Ask me
and I will answer them for you.”
“By all means, Venerable Nārada, try these questions.
I’ll ask you
and you can answer them for me.”
(Saviṭṭha repeats exactly the same series of questions, and Nārada answers just as Musīla did.)
“Reverend Nārada, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, do you personally know that
the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment?”
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, endorsement, oral transmission, reasoned train of thought, or acceptance of a view after deliberation, I know and see that
the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.”
“Then Venerable Nārada is a perfected one, with defilements ended.”
“I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one.
Suppose there was a well on a desert road that had neither rope nor bucket.
Then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched.
They’d know that there was water, but they couldn’t physically touch it.
In the same way, I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet I am not a perfected one.”
When he said this, Venerable Ānanda said to Venerable Saviṭṭha,
“Reverend Saviṭṭha, what do you have to say to Venerable Nārada when he speaks like this?”
“Reverend Ānanda, I have nothing to say to Venerable Nārada when he speaks like this, except what is good and wholesome.”